Yesterday we all had a great day at Summer Camp and hopefully people took away a lot of useful information that can be applied to businesses. There was a lot of good discussion and one issue cropped up during Conall McDevitt’s talk and the discussion with the panel of bloggers and journalists that followed had some really good back and forth heated debate, the kind of conversation that really gets some answers.
The main conversation was between Conall (a well respected MD of a large international PR company) and Darragh Doyle (prominent Irish blogger and the community manager of one of Ireland’s biggest sites Boards.ie) and centered around the subject of finding advocates online. Conall was making the point that advocates were becoming more important as they had far more influence than advertising and that it was essential to find them online (you can see his presentation embedded below).
Although the conversation went on for some time the message was as follows….
Darragh
People Online Should not be called advocates and they are just people who use their computers and happen to spend time online. You don’t need to target these people and they are probably only saying bad things about your product for a good reason and you should just talk to them. There are no advocates online, just PEOPLE
Conall
He stated that he was a professional marketer and his job was to identify ways of helping people to push their brand. Research proves that targeting advocates online helps brands sell more products.
Now this opened a can of worms that I have been thinking about since I attended an event that Damien organized bringing Bloggers together with PR folk to try and find some common ground and hopefully work together a few months back. I left that meeting with the same feeling I had yesterday….Bloggers and PR folk don’t really mix that well.
Conall talking about PR
Sure there have been some great examples recently with Bord Gais (some example bloger coverage here) and Budweiser (some example blogger coverage here) in particular working well with bloggers to include them in the loop about new products but the examples of successful campaigns are few and far between. Here is the problem….
PR companies and marketers want to TARGET bloggers to get coverage for their products, they don’t really care about the conversation or anything apart from the product they are pushing
Bloggers want to get the scoop, feel important, ahead of the curve or get to test products or invited to launches early. They MIGHT then write about the product.
I think on the most part PR companies and marketers are scared shitless of bloggers as there have just been too many stories about the stray press release or the incorrect manner in which the blogger has been approached. I think this is a shame but I can’t seeing it changing too much in the future. Sure people are starting to get bloggers a little more and understand not to spam them and how to talk to them properly but for the most part marketers and bloggers are 2 very different groups of people who’s interests are just too far apart to live happily ever after.
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What a horsehshit presentation. Advocacy? Battle lines? Soap boxes? Enlist? Channels of Engagement? Welcome to obsolescence Conall and Weber Shandwick, you’re already fucked. Colour has a U btw.
Most scarey bit? I can’t decide which is worse.
“Advocacy = Influencing Group Think” How ARROGANT! We are not sheep, for crying out loud!
Or using the word “enlist” in relation to “advocates”
*shudders*
And go on, make up a new word – badvocacy. Oh come on.
Well-spotted terms of reference. After all the cross-fire coursing through this blog post, I wonder what terms of reference will be revised in Conall’s presentation.
I would have to agree with Darragh here. The nature of the online community is all about the “collective of the individual” – both in their ability to speak but also in their ability to listen. Essentially it is this choice that makes online so powerful.
To explain…
The fact that I have the ability to broadcast my thoughts and opinions to the entire world empowers me in a way that a private person did not have in decades past. However, the nature of this empowerment is that I have the choice of who I want to listen to. Therefore, if someone is broadcasting an uninspired, untrue, poorly thought-out or simply boring message, I won’t listen to it. That person has no impact on me.
However, should they have smart, educated and inspired commentary on a subject which I am interested in, I will listen. If they are particularly sensible and clever in what they say I will engage them. Generally speaking a person of that calibre will return the engagement and we will have a conversation on that topic.
Which of us is more important to talk to, from a brand point of view? Well both of us, and anyone else who has engaged in that conversation. There is no single influencer here – there is a group of people all worthy of a brands time.
Most importantly though, what they are saying, as smart educated people, is more then likely researched and factual. As a brand/business, talking to these people will not change the facts. You need to do more. You need to listen, take on board their comments, and then action them in the real world. Then you as a brand/business have benefited from what the web (Social Media) has to offer.
Thanks for the constructive??!!?? feedback Damien. We have never met although we were due to speak together at a fringe SDLP Conference meeting last year which you were unable to make. Pity because I think there is an important discussion to be had here.
I would have thought you would welcome the fact that PR is taking social and digital media very seriously. I blog myself and have done for several years. But the digital community is another media to anyone who’s job it is to communicate – a different media yes but another one. The future of communications is not online or offline in my view, its inline.
Like you I support the democratisation of comment. But it’s not just about the technology and the early adopters. The real challenge is to get the traditional PR industry and the traditional media to recognise the opportunities this creates for them.
With regard to Weber Shandwick that is your opinion but our reputation on this island and globally speaks for itself. Many of my colleagues will be very disappointed to read someone they respect making that sort of comment. Maybe you should come up to Belfast some day and see what we do and the recognition we have received for it.
Here are a few articles you may find interesting:
http://oconallstreet.com/2009/08/27/speaking-notes/
http://oconallstreet.com/2009/01/06/put-your-marketing-budget-in-pr/
Mr Mulley’s reply to this post is the exact reason why PR companies are so anxious about approaching bloggers. Those that try are ridiculed and those that don’t are said to be in the dark ages.
I would suggest that PR companies stop jumping through Damien Mulley’s hoops and get their coverage the way they always did before Damien put himself up on his own pedestal
MJ and Christian
I think you are reading this the wrong way. To be fair these are just slides. I do speak and I think you will find that we are all on the same pitch. We had a great disucssion yesterday and I got great feedback for my talk.
I have linked to a few articles in my reply to Damian above which you may find interesting.
Anyway. Nice to connect.
Hi Conall – my comments are said both in relation to the presentation (and I did not hear you give it so I didn’t base what I said on it) and my own opinion of the online world and how it should work. My comment stands out as a general personal opinion based on the entire question of Blogging and PR. Community enagement is what’s important, not individual engagement. Don’t talk to key influencial bloggers, talk to as many online users as you can – of course point of fact is that it makes sense from many points of view to do so through the channels that bloggers have created but you need to be aware of who they are, what they write, how they write it etc. etc. – it is the same as choosing which journos your press release goes to.
Frustrated – Damien doesn’t have any hoops. He has opinions, and by virtue of experience his opinions are worth considering. PR companies should only be anxious about approaching bloggers if they have not done their research (see above comment to Conall). If you know who you are talking to, and you talk to them (personally), then there is nothing to fear.
Christian
I think we are basically on the same pitch. Appreciate that you are playing the ball and not the man.
Conall
I don’t understand the “battle” here. While I agree with Damien in the fact that there are many many PR people who suck. I think their system is great… for PR people. They charge clients big monthly retainers that get them paid no matter what happens. Think about how cool it would be to get $3000 – $5000 from each client per month for “trying” to do your job.
However, some PR people do a great job of getting PR for their clients and they are worth every penny.
Others are very tuned into the changing areas of money and publicity. They respect the position that bloggers have attained, and know how to work with them for win – win results.
On the flip side, there are bloggers out there who have taken their 15 minutes of fame and believed that they are powerful. They are pompous and rude and take joy in harming others with the mean spirited posts on their blogs. They love to rip on people who are just trying to earn a living and sell a product.
Blogs are mainstream. But when you are mainstream you have to play by a different set of rules if you want sustainability. People don’t stick with jerks over the long run.
This debate seems odd to me, as there are bad apples in PR and bad ones in bloggers…. but most seem to co-exist and respect what each brings to the table.
With most things in life… it comes down to building mutually beneficial relationships that lead both parties to better things than they would accomplish alone. If PR people and bloggers look at each other as the enemy, both come up short.
““Advocacy = Influencing Group Think” How ARROGANT! We are not sheep, for crying out loud!”
I think this is the trickiest part of working with bloggers as part of a marketing campaign. it’s easy in language and in analysis to reduce bloggers and their community to terms and cliches, when in fact it is the individual and human nature of the medium that makes it such an interesting and important component of contemporary marketing and PR.
On the other hand, some of us are sheeplike sometimes, it seems. Witness the current Dooce/Maytag/Twitter lunacy as example.
I’m sorry I couldn’t make the presentations yesterday. Next time!
Hi Sasha
My key point yesterday was that PR people need to learn how to get conversations going. To that extent I appear to have had some success. I agree about people in the trad pr space needing to undertand the dyanamics of online communities much better which I why I have blogged for several years and enjoy debating where our profession is going.
PR isnt going away. Nor are bloggers and the trad press. the question is how do you manage these new relationships.
Conall
Nice IP you have there “Frustrated”.
Conall, see, this is the real transparent world. If we met or not, I’d still call out that bullshit in your presentation (which let’s be honest you just got from the American office and stuck your name on, thus the American spellings). If you have the mentality and language of “battle lines” as you do your work then you’ve failed in this new world of telling people including clients how it really is. Why is it that you and “Frustrated” need to hide and puppeteer in the shadows? Online is the whole world now and it’s sunlight, it’s truth, it’s honesty and it’s apparently impossible for you and your ilk.
That presentation is actually giving PR people who give a damn a bad name. There are lots out there who get it or want to get it and want to be part of a community, not having a community in their crosshairs.
Love the blog, never knew how key you were to the Good Friday agreement, was it good for business? Seems it was.
Battle lines. Hah.
Damien.
That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.
The presentation is designed to get traditional PR people thinking about inline communications. Its deliberately provocative beacuse it needs to get a conversation going.
I’ll sit down to discuss all this with you any day because whilst I may not be 100% right some of what you say is just not on the mark either.
Anyway business is good thanks. I am not sure it is because I worked in politics though. In fact many people believe my past career has the opposite effect!
I really was taken aback by your tweet earlier. I do hope we can move on from that based on some sort of mutual respect. The one thing the peace process taught me is that people have to find ways of working together and respecting each other.
Conall
Right .. where do I start here Conall!
I was standing at the back of the room yesterday biting my tongue. I really think you need to take your finger out of your own ass in terms of your analysis of what you think is going on online. You call yourself a “blogger”, yet in the same breath you say that “Bloggers and PR folk don’t really mix that well.”. Reaming out percentages and statistics might make you feel like your involved in online PR, but in reality you are just pushing numbers and pointing out the obvious.
I respect that you come from an old-school PR background where you controlled the message and influenced the medium. Things have changed, you know that I know that, so why stand around scratching yourself while you are trying to understand whats going on.
You spoke about advocates as if it was your god given right to brand peoples asses with your philosophies and ideas. In my opinion, this is a highly outdated approach to working and engaging with people.
This smells a little bit like trying to re-frame social media into whatever old PR view of the world worked in the past. It’s a sort of buzzword bingo that might make Fortune 500 companies feel better about paying a monthly retainer, but it’s exactly the sort of standoffish rhetoric which would make the average person feel like a faceless automaton.
If anything the “Badvocates” (Honestly, the most embarrassingly clichéd portmanteau I’ve heard in a very long time) are exactly the people that you need social media to reach – it’s a failure in the company’s process or product/service that has resulted in an unpleasant experience for them (and follows the old adage of the unhappy customer telling 10 of their friends vs a happy customer telling 2).
The tentative relationship between PR and bloggers is due to PR representatives trying to push an opinion into an unnatural direction, and when it happens this way people quite naturally don’t play along. Blogging isn’t like a paid media slot where you spout the same tired platitudes and expect consumers to lap it up, it’s a personal, unique viewpoint that has to be earned through something more than lip-service.
Wow, I’ve been granted an entitlement to having an opinion.
Dave had you been there you would have heard me say a lot of what you just have.
Unfortunately I wasn’t able to make the event yesterday, but I was able to join in for networking over a scrummy bbq, and it was there that I met several interesting people who had watched the presentation & the panels views. Points that were being discussed by the attendees were similar to those raised here: bloggers are people, people who use online social media are PEOPLE not “advocates”. There was resentment towards the term advocate because it DE-personalises a media which, by it’s very nature is personal- i.e. SOCIAL media.
I find it interesting that soley from what I’ve read here Connall as a Public Relations professional you appear to have missed the opportunity to build positive RELATIONS with people (bloggers) who would be excellent “Advocates” if only you were able to communicate in a language & way that they could relate to, and not be offended by.
Some of the things that I advise my clients when using social media are as follows:
Be careful what you choose to communicate to potential & existing customers, make sure that the message is consistent.
Talk openly about topics that are of interest to them & related to your brand.
Be friendly.
LISTEN to what your potential customers & existing customers are saying.
Deliver VALUE that is perceived to be greater than the price of your product/service.
BUILD RELATIONSHIPS.
People buy from people/brands/businesses that they LIKE. People tend to like people who like them, showing a genuine interest in PEOPLE rather than “advocates” is a very powerful. This is why social media, and twitter in particular can be, when used correctly an extremely positive tool for business.
The key to social media is building genuine, honest relationships, and delivering value that exceeds expectations- people will talk about your business positively when you do this- they become your fans & do your marketing for you. It is not about manipulating people into becoming “advocates”. Old style manipulative PR & Marketing tactics are working less and less. I can’t wait until larger business start catching onto this & stop spamming people with a constant barrage of manipulation. Some innovative companies are beginning to move towards a new style of marketing- they recognise that it is far more cost effective to build one genuine positive relationship than bombarding or “spamming” 100’s of “advocates” constantly with manipulative marketing.
Jason
I take it im not the sort of person who should be turning up at BTW then?.
I cant remember saying that PR people and bloggers dont mix. I really enjoy blogging and yes I do think it gives me some insights into how I and others in my profession can do our job better.
My view of the future as i said above is that it will be ‘inline’ that is both offline and online.
Conall
So am I to understand that, in essence, bloggers want to blog and discuss things they’re interested in, whether that be the movies they see or the area of employment they’re in, but PR people are trying to group these bloggers into what amounts to advertising billboards (”advocates”).
Does no one remember the Sony PSP blog “All I want for Christmas is a PSP”? A blog written by two “dudes” who discussed the “awesome” new Sony(tm) PSP? The blog was found out by real people and dismantled, and Sony had to issue a press release to say they made a whoopsie. But some PR man thought this was what needed to happen and probably still got a bonus.
The idea was to get some fake bloggers to influence other bloggers the world over and create an awesome brand built on a huge community. Instead, someone was smart enough to smell the bravo sierra.
This talk seems to have ignored that point. Everywhere, in any context, someone will sniff out the BS. Sure, someone will lap up the targeted attention from PR and product managers, but they won’t do themselves any favours if all they do is post press releases about how awesome (TM) is.
Blogging, tweeting and boards.ie-ing are about personal opinion and how a community builds is by sharing that opinion. Pushing an opinion down into a community (and I say “down” because the impression is that a lot of PR & business believe they’re “above” community, even these days!) simply doesn’t work. Standing off and advertising a product is fine but doesn’t target the audience properly because if, for example, Damien or Darragh jumps onto twitter and links to a service/product they used that was great, more people will care and go onto it. However, what’s not understood is that Damien, Darragh or other people are not billboards and the more people link to stuff like that, the less likely me, or other people involved in a community are to give a damn.
There’s a happy medium here, but targeting people to be a shill is not it.
Niall, a few weeks back on the publication of the survey about online habits you were all about “journos” getting sneak peek of report. I asked “what about bloggers”… Emailed my details to you so I could do a blog post about it. Got nothing back and I think you deliberately did that too. Your mentality seems to be all about MSM, and I find it very odd that a blogger who specifically went to you asking for something to blog about – got nada back.
no doubt if I’d been “influential” or “prominent” I’d have gotten something back from you. So try practice what you preach re: social media engagement.
That was clearly missed by myself. Don’t want to seem to be making excuses but I sent that out to anybody who asked and wouldn’t consider leaving anybody off the list. I had asked if bloggers wanted it first so I would hardly leave you out when asking for it. We are a tiny business who are only starting to get our message out there so would have welcomed anybody big or small covering our story, genuine oversight on my behalf and nothing intentional.
*raises hand again* Niall I must confess…I’ve stopped following all of your (well, 3?) twitter accounts simply because you don’t engage as much as everybody else. Not a single shred of offence intended, I just lost interest. I still direct people to your sites though – you’ve a great business model (or 3!) on how to embrace social media for the entrepreneurs I meet every day. You get it 90% right I reckon.
Having sat on all sides of the fence over the past couple of years on this debate, online can be very intimidating. My first contact with Damien was him telling me to fuck off but in fairness I deserved it at the time for sending a ridiculous press release to him but approaching bloggers and joining in the conversation is incredibly intimidating and not easy to figure out from sitting on the sidelines.
The big problem is that I understood the problem sitting there listening to the conversation as did the bloggers, Marie Boran from Silicion Republic and a few of the PR folk but the rest of the room who were business owners representing brands all sat back and thought “well fuck that talking to bloggers lark, it is a bloody minefield”. The blogger PR meetup was a good start by Damo but as I said in the post the 2 sides are too far apart by nature and this discussion will be being had on another blog in the same fashion somewhere else in a years time.
Claire
Please read these articles. I think you will find we are on the same page.
I was invited to give a challenging talk and get people thinking. I was happy to do that and am sorry some people seemed to find what I had interesting.
http://oconallstreet.com/2009/08/27/speaking-notes/
http://oconallstreet.com/2009/01/06/put-your-marketing-budget-in-pr/
Conall
Kevin
“So am I to understand that, in essence, bloggers want to blog and discuss things they’re interested in, whether that be the movies they see or the area of employment they’re in, but PR people are trying to group these bloggers into what amounts to advertising billboards (”advocates”).”
My point is that PR people need to know what conversations are going on and where and then engage with bloggers as individuals to try build relationships.
I agree with you that all too many dont!
Conall
Yes Conall, there are similarities in what we are saying. You have missed the point though- if it’s about building relationships it seems to me that you’ve failed to that in this instance.
Sometimes it’s not WHAT you say that creates disharmony it’s HOW you say it.
Conall I was quoting you on the “Bloggers and PR folk don’t really mix that well.” its in your second paragraph “I left that meeting with the same feeling I had yesterday….Bloggers and PR folk don’t really mix that well.” ..
PR and Trad media are more than welcome to join us at BTW.. We actually have a number of PR and marketing people registered. I know this because I didn’t go out looking for advocates, I built genuine meaningful relationships with people.
Claire
Thanks for that.
Maybe I need a good coach?
Conall
Jason
Just for for record,
That’s not me – its Niall!!
Conall
Thats fair enough .. It wasn’t really that clear from the post! /me pokes Niall
Don’t have me call Micky Oleary on you now Jason
“PR companies and marketers want to TARGET bloggers to get coverage for their products, they don’t really care about the conversation or anything apart from the product they are pushing” this is entirely sensible as it is what people are being paid to do. Why would anyone expect someone in PR to do more than that? I don’t want someone selling me a car to be my friend. I have friends, I don’t what the guy whose aim is making money off my purchases to be one as well. This conversation shtick is also and frankly it’s creepy.
DM -”Online is the whole world now and it’s sunlight, it’s truth, it’s honesty and it’s apparently impossible for you and your ilk.” Ah the great transparency argument, bloggers censor the discussion on their site. You do it all the time Damien to shape the ‘conversation’ as do others I’m sure. Blogging is simply a medium and it’s only as honest as the people using it. No more, no less. Also, suggesting that you’re tracking the IP on someone else’s site as a means to shout people down is hardly about openness. If you have access from simplyzesty that other people commenting here don’t then they would be open about that, if not then they should say that too. I thought it was the message and the content and the strength of your argument that mattered on-line and not your ability to bully others into not expressing themselves by darkly hinting that you know things.
This notion of bloggers as members of a ‘community’ or a sect that need to be addressed a certain way is shoe horning together concepts that have nothing to do with each other. If there is any communities out there they are self selected ones of people who happen to blog and for some reason wish to rarefy what they’re are doing. People talk about engaging with ‘bloggers’ but the bloggers involved in these engagements are invited and selected based on not getting on the wrong side of the gate keepers hustling the engagement. They are no more typical of people blogging than the reviewers on The View are typical of film goers. Such a ‘community’ should not by any stretch of the imagination be confused with a community comprised of the entirety of the people who are using what is after all just a technology. Where is the email community? The dull fact is that at the moment there are people who wish to make money from touting themselves as the gatekeepers. ‘Come to us’ they say to anyone with money to spend, ‘we shall show you the way.’ Good luck with that I’d say but spare us the messianic nonsense about the brave new open world. But heaven help anyone who appears to be competing in the same space as one of the gatekeepers or who suggests that the emperor might be a tad under dressed.
Just FYI although I really shouldn’t have any need to say it….Myself and Lauren are the only people who write on this blog and wouldn’t give access to anybody else.
Hi Daniel, a few points…
“Blogging is simply a medium and it’s only as honest as the people using it. No more, no less” – this is of course 100% true – but it needs to be qualified with the reminder that blogs are free to read and those writing them (the bloggers) are unpaid. That changes things very much, and brings me back to my earlier point that I have the choice of who I want to listen to and if someone is broadcasting an uninspired, untrue, poorly thought-out or simply boring message, I won’t listen to it.
“bloggers involved in these engagements are invited and selected based on not getting on the wrong side of the gate keepers hustling the engagement” – I would say this is incorrect entirely. People invited to blogging events are done so based on their own interests and blogging topics. This is my direct experience as an Irish blogger who regularly engages with PR companies. I don’t get invited to events about topics/brands/products that I have no interest in. Simple.
Just for the record, I thought I’d point out that I’m heading in to BTW and have been made feel very welcome by Jason. I think I qualify as “PR” though I’d not really have “branded” myself as that.
I think the whole language surrounding this web-based marketing and PR is kind of a mess; it seems very much detrimental to the ongoing debate. If you want to talk to human beings (social media, blogging, whatever else) then talk like human beings. It’s common courtesy.
I’m a lot happier to just say that I’m looking forward to BTW, independent of anything work related
I will read those articles, thank you Conall, and I’ll comment again if there is something worth commenting on in there.
I agree with Dave and think he sums it up well with “The tentative relationship between PR and bloggers is due to PR representatives trying to push an opinion into an unnatural direction” – key word here, *unnatural.* The issue I have with PR people not getting the social media thing is presuming they can way in with big size tens and influence people. We all know that the work of advertising and PR agencies is naturally filtered out by the general public at the best of times (kettles go on during ad breaks, the dawn of supreme channel surfing, ignorning advertorials in publications, that sort of thing). This shows how much the public filters out PR on a daily basis – what makes dodgy PR folk assume that they *should* be able to manipulate the views of bloggers or people on Twitter?
To echo Claire’s tips – the key to a successful Twitter campaign by any business big or small is – be real. Be genuine. Don’t try to have a hidden agenda, it just won’t wash. As everyone is saying here today, bloggers are real people – human beings – we’re meant to be reasonably intelligent, please don’t insult us by pidgeonholing and categorising. Good PR people let us be, and wait for us to talk about them. If you had something worth talking about, you wouldn’t need to work so hard on the relationships, they would just happen.
The people I follow most on Twitter are just themselves. They are naturally engaging and are happy to talk about the passion in their lives – their businesses. Even if that is an employee at a huge multinational – they are passionate a real about it, and that is what shines through.
Good luck to all businesses who venture into social media. Once you don’t underestimate your audience, you’ll get on just fine.
This discussion makes me think that there’s still a lot of fear and lack of understanding around blogging, bloggers and talking openly online from the POV of people trying to market a product. And in fairness, I wish I’d thought a bit more about what I had to say. It all boils down to two things: 1. people talk 2. how can you join and bring something to the conversation.
Marketers and PR people came along yesterday to see how online conversation fits into their world view. So what if Conall used a buzzword like ‘badvocate’? People like Mark Earls and Seth Godin use buzzwords all the time. He’s lumping bloggers into two categories for simplification (remember these talks were for social media newbs that already know marketing/pr) – ones that help your product, ones that don’t. Granted I wouldn’t have gone about it that way but I’m not in the business of PR.
What I don’t like is the fact that there is blatant animosity from both ’sides’ (I’m not referring specifically to above conversation, I’m talking about on the web in general). One thing I do know is that bloggers, like any normal healthy social group, are all about community. If you try to analyse, condense or explain away a community it will close off from you. Trust needs to be gained. I’m not about to jump into any social group without showing my colours, taking it slowly and earning trust. Maybe this is how a business can bring its product in.
Ps Niall, no-one ‘deserves’ to be told to fuck off for sending a ‘ridiculous’ press release. I get really bad press releases all the time, I simply delete them.
Marie, I agree with you entirely. I spoke to a lot of people after the event, and the fear was evident. Whatever the reasons are behind it, it’s a fact that can’t be ignored. This is the feedback coming direct from the small businesses etc.. who are thinking about engaging online. It’s a conversation I continually have. If (many) people are claiming that they’re afraid of engaging with bloggers for fear of backlash – then there is a reason for it and we need to look deeper into why this is. There’s no point in ignoring it and continually emphasising that bloggers are ‘people’. For whatever reason, many businesses are not comfortable having the same conversation with someone online that they would happily have over the phone, in their shop, or wherever their business takes place. We need to look at why.
But Lauren, why do they have to have the conversation “online”? Why can’t they lift the phone, meet for a coffee, invite to the office, or their shop or talk business face to face?
Send an email saying “Hello” and introduce yourself.
Invite them for a coffee and find out of they can help you in whatever way
Follow up with the information they’ve asked for.
You say “people are afraid”. You know why? Because events like yesterday don’t help. There was no talk of “this is how you do it”. People certainly weren’t afraid to approach me and ask for advice and help yesterday, something I was glad to give.
Look at the message that the people who are supposed to be helping people in this whole area are sending out.
I’m not saying people aren’t afraid. I’m saying that people are there and willing to answer all these questions and answer that fear.
Lauren, companies are afraid of bloggers? Are they afraid of their customers? If you expect negative comments/opinions maybe you should fix the service/product. If a company provides a good service and a good product why would they be afraid of public opinion?
Darragh – the very point of yesterday was that we didn’t want to peddle a ‘ this is how you do it’ approach. The emphasis was on telling people about the various tools etc… to help them start engaging with people online and start a social media presence. There is no simple formulaic ‘how to’ approach for this, something you know as well as I do. I can only speak from experience, where I’ve had conversations with people that are perfectly happy to deal with their customers face to face, but aren’t willing to do this online for fear of backlash. I can’t pretend that that attitude isn’t out there when I know that it is. It’s my job to help demystify the world of social media and emphasise that Twitterers, bloggers etc.. are people just like any other. Sometimes this is a bigger task than it needs to be and my point is that we need to understand why.
Joerg – I’ve no doubt that people are ‘afraid’ of their customers, but they seem to be more willing to deal with this offline than online. And Darragh is right, this conversation doesn’t always need to happen online, but it is when the conversation originates online that there seems to be the most fear and reluctance to engage. Again, I want to get to the bottom of why this is
Lauren, with all due respect, there is a simple approach to do engage with people online. Treat them like people. Start there. I honestly can’t see what’s difficult about that, yet people seem to either forget or ignore it all the time.
I’m not saying that it’s not hard work – of course it is – but it’s work that will ultimately benefit the person who puts the work in.
There always is a “how-to” but it’s not a “one size fits all” approach either. People have to do what’s right for their company.
Lauren,
How can you demystify anything without providing the HOW?
People know WHAT blogging is- they can read it for themselves. What businesses want to know is HOW they can do it successfully.
Just to support Lauren. I could have come along and delivered a how to presentation but that was not the purpose of the day. The objective was to get people thinking about digital and social media.
Most of the audience were experienced people who are looking to the bottom line or the funding line. I was asked to give them something challenging and thought provoking.
Definitely job done there Conall! Next time you’re around and free, give me a shout. Would love a pint or coffee and a chat. Will also email you during the week
I’m really not sure about the ‘animosity’ idea. as I’ve mentioned before, I engage and am engaged by PR folks all the time (weekly), and I have never experienced any sort of animosity from fellow bloggers towards them, or from PR folk to bloggers.
What an interesting scrap!
And I certainly have to say that if all PR people think like Conall, then there is a BIG chasm between bloggers and PR people and in my opinion it all stems from being blinkered on both sides!
Darragh Doyle is totally right, every blogger/tweeter is a person and most of them/us do it for fun / as a hobby and simply for non commercial reasons. And it is very annoying if then someone comes along and tags you with a stupid label and declares that he wants to use you as a tool. Conall, in his PR world-thinking, applies grand labels that might impress the paying customer but that clearly are discriminatory. Yes, his world is disrespectful and working in a purely commercial context he is big time blinkered and is prepared to USE whatever tool is available to achieve his commercial goal.
What we have is really a clash between commercial and non-commercial motivations and both sides seem to miss something, however if it came to a vote, I would be very much on the side of the bloggers purely because I feel Conall completely lacks respect for the individualism and the altruism of the blogging community.
Oh and before I continue I have to wonder if Conall’s definition of blogging is the same as the blogger’s definition of what they do. As a PR person Conall might with every blog try to achieve something, get a message out there, convince someone about something. The “pure” bloggers don’t do that. They more write a public diary and want to be themselves instead of being a cheap tool for a money-making PR agency. Conall, in my opinion your slides (and I didn’t hear the talk) show a huge disrespect for bloggers.
However, let’s face it PR is ALWAYS using people or tricks or weaknesses in us to get their message across. Desire, scarcity, envy all work extremely well and in the end we are all used by PR to increase sales of their customers. We might complain, but it is a fact of life and Conall is at least very honest about it. As a blogger you are a multiplier, a snowball that is cheap and therefore you are interesting to Conall. Your positive opinion/endorsement helps him to achieve his goal. A slashing will have a significant negative effect. So, yes, he HAS to look at bloggers as tools otherwise he wouldn’t do his job badly. He could wrap it in nicer words, but the end result is the same.
I think if PR people informed us, showed that they appreciated and respected us and gave us opportunities to have some interesting information slightly before others we would be happy to co-operate and implicitly help the PR people. But, PR people, don’t expect us to do what you want. We are NOT tools and we are not dependent on you.
Are the two groups Incompatible? Not at all! But, Conall, show us the respect we deserve as human beings with an own and free opinion. We will write what WE want, not what you want us to write. If your advertised product is good, we will rave about it. If it is crap, we will slash and burn it with words. Live with it.
And once you get that then we can be HUGELY helpful to you. If you don’t respect us, I would speculate that you probably don’t respect your target audience either but look at them as stupid lemmings that are there to buy and to enrich you. And if that is the case you deserve to fail.
Bloggers are people
PR people are people
Journalists are people
Forum users are people
Marketing people are (funny enough) people
Photographers are also people
Web developers/programmers/designers are all people
Most of the accounts on Twitter are people
The other common element? They enjoy sharing information, in whatever form that they do. Marketing people share/tell about their brand. PR people share the buzz. Journalists tell the story. Photographers take the picture. Twitterers tweet. Bloggers write things and put it on their blog. All with one goal – to communicate it to the person sitting at the computer monitor reading what they have written.
People who use the internet are all many things, professions and backgrounds but overall they’ve got one thing in common. They’re people looking for information, either specific or general, to inform, educate or entertain, or all three.
For too long people have tried to put people in categories and boxes and classify them in how you should talk to them. For too long marketers and PR people have stuck rigidly to what they’ve learned in college about how people should be dealt with. What we’ve seen in recent years is that that way is completely outdated, as is that style of thinking.
What is the difference between a journalist and a blogger?
“Journalists” don’t just write for print any more. Many tell their stories on blogs and websites as well. They are paid to write certain articles but now we’re seeing more and more expand on what was in print online, or post articles that never made it to print. They have a good, learned, style of writing, which reflects on them, their skill as a journalist and their reputation. People can read what they write and learn from them.
“Bloggers” don’t just “blog” – they photograph, they video, they talk, they go to events, they meet people and often have a wide and varied online presence that benefits them offline, and they write about that online, unpaid for the most part. They can communicate passionately about what they want to, and do it in a way both to inform and entertain and this reflects on them, their skill as a blogger and their reputation. People can read what they write and learn from them.
Should they be communicated to differently? No. They should be communicated to as people. Approached respectfully, dealt with professionally and thanked for what they do. Talking to either where the approach based only on the fact they have a “label” rather than they are “people” is bound to fail.
Anyone trying to get their message across needs to remember that all these are are people who create the information that people are looking for.
Yesterday’s discussion
Conall is a really interesting, nice, approachable guy with a great pedigree in marketing. I’d hate anyone to think that my interruption on his talk was anything other than me engaging with him. It’s worth pointing out that this was during the Q&A session at the end of his talk, and afterwards, we talked together, civilly, about our discussion. So no problems there between us – him PR, me a blogger.
He started badly though. He made a throwaway comment to the room about how he could continue his conversation or “they could listen to some bloggers” – silly thing to do, when the “advocates” he’s talking about are in the room. He once again didn’t treat us as people.
My main beef with part of Conall’s presentation was the (over)use and emphasis on this idea that someone trying to communicate their message online (be that about their company, brand, event, charity or service (I’ll refer to this as “brand” from now on) should go out and “recruit/enlist” “advocates” to spread the word about them, and to have a strategy in place to deal with “badvocates”.
Bullshit.
All anyone needs to do is to communicate properly with the person reading their screens.
If you want people to think positively of your brand, provide a good service. Have a decent website. Answer the questions you are asked. Give to them what you say you’re going to give to them. If they have problems, resolve them or at least do your best to. Do what you say you’re going to do.
If there was scaremongering started in yesterday’s class, it was the use of “The battle lines” heading in screen 19 of Conall’s presentation. You’d swear that there was some magical, mystical way of communicating online that doesn’t work anywhere else. It’s simple – provide people with the facts that are interesting about your service and make sure they are true.
Screen 20 – “We need to think differently” – no you don’t. You just need to think “there is a person, like YOU ARE NOW, sitting at a monitor reading this”. You still need to tell your story. Yes there are more channels, but they’re simple to use. You must still communicate the right message and do PR. It will work both online and offline.
Get rid of the notion or label of “advocates” and go right back to the very basics of delivering a good service – “There are people who are happy with the service I provide and will tell others about it” and “There are people not happy with the service I provide, so can I resolve their issues or have I done all I can to make it the best possible?”. That’s simply it ladies and gentlemen. No big mystery there. Of course if people are happy with your service they’ll contribute to your bottom line. But why label them “advocates”?
Take slide 27. Full of questions that might need answering, but even better might be
Are we providing a good service?
Are people happy with us?
If we gave them the opportunity to, would they tell other people about us?
If they have a problem, how can we solve it for them and show we have?
What are we doing that will make people talk about us?
If people want to talk TO us, can they?
Don’t go “enlisting advocates”. Just let people talk about you and give them a good reason to. If they have a question about you online, answer it. If there’s something you can do for them, do it.
Talk to people.
You know what Niall? That’s even more bullshit than “advocates and badvocates”
People don’t mix very well Niall, not generally. The problem here is that once again you’re putting labels on people and trying to confine them. “The Irish and English don’t really mix that well” is along the same lines.
If there’s a “problem” between PR people and bloggers, it’s that they don’t talk enough, because generally, PR people don’t approach bloggers as people, but as promotion vehicles. It doesn’t work like that. But both sides are learning, and learning quickly. I, for example, though with no need to contact PR companies for my job, am in touch with at least ten of the top PR companies in Dublin and I meet and talk and have chats and coffee and pints with PR people all the time, because we’re talking as people. You knwo why the Budweiser event you mentioned was a success? Because organisers WHPR came to me (completely free of charge I might add) and asked me what they should do. I told them. They did it. No big surprise there.
That’s because no one is talking. No one is asking. No one is listening.
Not always Niall, they just need to understand it first.
Bloggers want to get the scoop, feel important, ahead of the curve or get to test products or invited to launches early. They MIGHT then write about the product.
Niall, again, complete shit-stirring and neither accurate, fair or true. We don’t “want” to. We appreciate it. Big difference. BIG difference. We “like” scoops, but also like being able to talk about things. We like someone saying “well done” for the work we do. People generally do that. We appreciate the invitation to a launch to find out more, to ask questions and to be able to write better about what we’re sharing. Of course we only MIGHT write about a product. What if it’s not interesting to us? What do you expect us to do?
Perhaps rightly so Niall. Some PR people have been stupid. But that doesn’t stop them from saying “sorry, won’t happen again”, from talking to other bloggers and learning how to do things properly.
Niall, a question. When was the last time you sat down with bloggers? I don’t mean met at an event, I don’t mean networked with, I don’t mean asked for links or coverage or mentions and I don’t mean personal friends. I mean sat down and asked bloggers about this.
You’ve displayed, to me, a shocking level of ignorance here and set back a lot of work that bloggers like Damien, like me, like others have tried to do. And it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth for those bloggers and online heads who wish(ed) you well with your projects, who blog about what you do and who, like me yesterday, donated my time free of charge to an event that put money into your pocket.
You know why and how? You haven’t asked. You’ve assumed.
I think Conall learned a lot from yesterday and the discussion and I look forward to sitting down with him and talking more, as I would with anyone else.
As for the anonymous “Frustrated”, the sooner you realise that Damien’s “pedestal” is non existent, the sooner you’ll get how to communicate with people. There are no “hoops” – there’s hard work. All we have the liberty of doing is pointing out when you’re doing it wrong and how to improve.
As for Daniel’s point (someone who has no bones about making his many problems with Damien known at every evailable opportunity) once again Daniel, you’re adding to the problem.
No they’re not. Depends on what you think of as a “community” I suppose, but firstly, I don’t think there is a blogging “community” but an online one in Ireland, and (b) the bloggers involved are involved because they make themselves available, they answer invitations and they are open to approaches. Why? Because they’re interested in what they write about and they want to find out things.
I watch conversations between the 1200+ communities on Boards.ie, on twitter and on blogs all the time. I listen to people. I try to do things correctly and if and when I don’t, I apologise and I try not to make the same mistake again. It’s all people talking. No bullshit. It’s very simple. And there-in lies the zest.
As I was saying in an email to you Darragh I would consider myself a blogger to a certain extent as well, I do after all write about 20 posts a week in various places although I may have totally different (and more commercial) goals than somebody like yourself. I also work with food bloggers from all over the world on our sites which I won’t name here and I can certainly see the benefits of good relationships every day of the week.
All we were trying to do yesterday and in this post today was give people a platfrom to discuss the issues and TBH the confrontation between yourself and Conel was not planned nor had I seen his slide deck but it is the best thing that could have happened to spark debate. Much better than sitting there listening to somebody speak at an audience for an hour.
My big worry in all of this is how it scares people like Eammon below. For people who have only heard of “blogging” to come across conversations like this one is very fucking scary and will make them think twice about getting involved.
I think some sort of short video interview might be in order with somebody like yourself to have as a resource where people could go and have a look.
Hyea Niall, I never questioned you being a blogger, just talking with other bloggers with different experiences and viewpoints and learning from each other. You’re far more a blogger than I am!!
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Agreed about yesterday – it’s good to talk. That was evident both from the Q&A with Jason, Marie and myself and for the two hours I spent with people afterwards, and also the emails I’ve received today.
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Eamonn certainly doesn’t strike me as someone who’s scared by this – he’s willing to challenge what he sees as wrong and express it as an opinion – just one that is factually incorrect. As Conall’s presentation said yesterday, if you want to engage with a community, learn the truth about them. Same with individuals.
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If people are scared by this conversation, don’t be. It’s the internet – a lot of people wouldn’t express this in the same way face to face. That is a problem but if you take it into account, it’s not a big one.
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Re the video interview – get a few people in. I’m just one person. Happy to introduce you to others who’d be only too glad to help out.
GAHHH to ridiculous formatting in the comment field!! So much for communicating effectively!!!
Hey, Darragh! You should hear what a big, rambling comment sounds like when it’s cranked through a text-to-speech reader. My ADA Reader put all sorts of words in your mouth and reminded me how important quotation marks and paragraph breaks can be in following cross-currents in a conversation.
Oh Bernie, if only you knew how long I’d spent typing, formatting, blockquoting and then editing to get that stream of rambling right, only to be foiled at the very end.
Maybe that’s for the best though. Me in a screen reader? *shudder* Did it bring out the culchie accent?
Well said!
I was wondering why you were so quiet!!
Well I do have a job, too. Can’t keep doing unpaid stuff all the time
I think you communicated extremely well Darragh
Thanks for articulating things I believe in, in an easily understandable way- it’s basically about PEOPLE talking! Who’d have thunk it could be so simple eh?
I couldn’t agree more with Darragh!
Through all the invective in these comments, I hold @darraghdoyle as a true emissary for the share-and-share-alike online world. We need more emissaries and a few considerate trust agents to help us Irish bloggers remember how consideration is the surest route to finding favour that returns.
Everyone is talking about simple and effective ways of communicating here aren’t they? Damien, the self-styled communications expert is really doing a masterful job in exposing his own limitations. He’s quick to fly off the handle and denounce anyone who dares to have a differing opinion or approach. He weighs in and knocks them down with insulting language and derisory comments like a playground bully. This sort of brash, unrestrained and unprofessional style may win you admirers from some quarters Damien, but I doubt there are many organisations who would be comfortable having someone like that responsible for managing their external reputation or advising them on “how to communicate”.
I appreciate that folks have strong feelings and serious disagreements with each other, but I think lack of civility is unnecessary. It even makes me somewhat uncomfortable and I often stand back from such discussions… and I’m fairly used to the rough and tumble of the online world having been on boards for 11 years! Is it really any wonder that total newbies are fearful?
Joerg
My definition of a blogger is anyone who writes something online that is interesting enough for others to read. I’m a blogger. Mine has been shortlisted several time for Irish Blog Awards as well as being ranked highly in NI and the UK. Its popular and well read. I am also a guest blogger on Slugger O’Toole which may well be the biggest blog on this island.
Please if you are serious about blogging then respect the fact that all sorts of different types of people blog!
Oh, I totally respect you being a blogger and I agree that blogging is sharing thoughts and ideas online. But IF there is a chasm between bloggers and PR people, which side do you see yourself on? Are you the type of blogger that at times might be a “Badadvocate”? And do you let PR people influence you and use you as a tool to be a good Advocate?
I totally respect that DIFFERENT types of people blog. But I am not sure if Niall made much of a differentiation between different types there!
Joerg
My blog is me, its a personal thing.
I tend not to write about client work but when I do I delcare the interest. I express my views and try to evidence what I say. Have I been a badvocate? Yes of course. I wrote about my old car in none to complimentary terms for example.
I guess I am luckly in that i rarely get approached by people to plug stuff because a; i work in pr and I guess they think I would be unlikely to plug someone elses client and b; because i dont tend to blog about good and services in that way.
When I do get approached I’ll write something if I like and not if i dont. But I always respect the fact that someone has thought of approaching me in the first place, even if it was just to add me to a bcc list.
I would hate for anyone to think of me as anything but professional and respectful of others professionals or not.
This conversation sums up the problem in the Blogging community.
Nobody is entightled to an opinion unless they are in they agree with the hardcore blogging community, and if you do express an opinion which is at odds to that community, then your an idiot and you will be crucified and ridiculed. Come on guys… get a grip and give others a chance. You’ve been pushing blogging and demanding respect from the wide community, which you now have, don’t blow it and end up being bitter and twisted if someone has an opinion which isn’t the same as yours.
Conal gave a presentation yesterday explaining what companies like his do for their clients. He gave his opinion on how the PR world was changing. He is right about it changing because it is and it has to.
Then a blogger… ie Damien, who I have met and do respect, comes in and uses foul language and sums up his entire presentation as bullshit and muddies his name, having not even been at the presentation yesterday. Totally uncalled for.
There is a level of the blogging community which is losing the respect of the Average / Normal internet user. Extremism and harsh comments which are unfounded are unnecessary are a complete waste of time.
I never respond to posts like this but maybe the Hardcore Blogging community need to calm down a little bit and have more respect for people and their opinions.
Get real folks and if you don’t have anything nice to say, say it but don’t gang up on a hard working individual with an opinion just because you disagree with them.
No doubt I will now get abused and shat on for having this opinion.
PS Well done Simply Zesty – Great day and a good crowd.
Eamonn
Eamonn, where are you getting that from at all at all?
My only suggestion (that I wish people would take from this) is do things correctly and deal with people as people, not as “labels”/
Everyone has the same chance, Eamonn. Everyone. Those who do it well succeed. Same as with everything in the world.
I’m really surprised you seem to think the “Hardcore blogging community” *is* Damien, as indicated by your commend. It’s not.
There’s also a difference between an “opinion” and “professional advice”, isn’t there?
*raises hand* I’m not hardcore…
I’m not a hardcore blogger, far from it, and I shuddered at the approach. Perhaps I misinterpreted the slides but that’s all there was to read, I was not at the presentation. From reading said slides, I am happy to ridicule the jargon being churned out; I do that any time I see silly new words. Am I not entitled to express myself here?
PS what’s “normal” on the internet? I thought I was. And I haven’t lost any respect for the blogging community on the back of this or similar posts/discussions!
“Also, suggesting that you’re tracking the IP on someone else’s site as a means to shout people down is hardly about openness”. Well said – a cheap trick.
Bullying and boorishness thinly disguised as ’sticking it to the man’.
Funny, because I actually agree with the sentiment. It is human nature to want to be treated as individuals. Unfortunately, it is also human nature that we often don’t act like individuals as this thread aptly illustrates.
Read through all of this and feel like I’ve read War & Peace. Do any of you people have deadlines? You could fill a whole newspaper with this stuff. Joking aside, everyone’s passion is evident. The whole ’social’ medium is so new I think we’re only at the foundation stage and have so much to learn … from each other too. I’m not really bothered about inline or online or communicating or influencing the masses, just doing my job which is giving my audience the quality of information I think they want.
But fundamentally a lot of this involves writing. I don’t consider bad language or nasty retorts good writing, just a form of behavior. If I was a brand and had to trust someone with my budget it wouldn’t endear me to any of you, I’d rather get on a bucking bronco or leave it outside a turf accountant’s premises.
Instead of course language how about wit and sarcasim, innuendo and eloquence?
Entertain and illuminate folks. They say sarcasm is either the highest or lowest form of humour but I found this one on Google and it seems to sum up this whole debate:
Lady Nancy Astor: If I were married to you, I’d put poison in your coffee!
Winston Churchill: If I were married to you, I would drink it.
Hi all, from the outside looking in, this conversation appears to highlight the gap that exists between traditional (or applied traditional) thinking and new thinking in terms in engaging blogging, SM etc to market.
PR in a traditional sense is about controlling what the customers hears and sees, so it is entirely natural that as PR companies engage and attempt to utilise blogs and bloggers, that they will attempt to continue to control the message. In essence, this is what their clients are paying them to do. This is a mass model where the opinion of the individual matters little.
The reality is that we are now moving away from this model and a blog gives the individual (person) a much louder voice than before – to the point that some bloggers have very large voices and now carry a lot of influence. These people have got there not being afraid to speak their mind and in many cases taking on organisations trough their blog.
Any efforts to control them will be met with fierce resistance (see above), In essence applying traditional methodology will prove counter productive, it will result in opposite rather than the intended outcome.
So PR/business will be left in a dilemma, in that they will have to sacrifice a lot of the control so that they can truly engage with the potential that exists. There is an evolutionary nature to this and it many respects the conversations above are representative of where we are now at.
In defence of marketers, they are in an very difficult spot, because it is actually the business leaders that they represent that are at the heart of the problem. At least they are engaging are are willing to learn, this conversation is prove of that. Unfortunately, the same could not be said about many others in a wider business sense.
There is big opportunity here to make an Ireland a leader although I worry that our leaders are either too slow (or too stupid) to grasp it. Smart Economy???
“Hi all, from the outside looking in, this conversation appears to…”
be about some people thinking they are better than other people because they are peddling a line that happens to be fashionable at the moment.
I think everything has been said by this point. I’d like to support to Darragh in his stance. We’re all just people. Spin, sales pitches and all the bullshit that comes with it misses this fundamental part.
It’s a very ‘prick me, do I not bleed?’ moment. I had believed that by now, after the Collision Course events, that the seeds for some sort of relationship across blogging and PR. And they have. PR people have emailed me about things. I don’t mind it all that much once they personalise contact, sent me something remotely relevent and don’t spam me to hell.
I find the backbiting in this discussion fascinating. Why the fuck do we have this problem in the first place? Is Ireland unique? Are we some hallowed ground? Or is it more a function of Irish begrudgery?
I read blogs from many different places and I’ve never witnessed the level of bitching about the relationships between PR people and bloggers. If bloggers do take up the opportunity, let them disclose.
PR folks, we’re not journalists. Don’t kill us with press releases. But the worst thing you can do, is try to control the conversation. That will cause backsplash. Trust in the relationship. If the product, service or event is really worth talking about then bloggers probably will. It’s fucking human nature.
Can PR and bloggers mix? What a silly question. We don’t sit on parts of the bus. Hyperanalysing the situation gets us where? Live and let live. There are bigger problems in the world. Once we begin to respect each other, then the rest will follow.
Alexia
I have given that presentation in GB and in the North on at least ten occasions but have never had this responce.
I live by the live and let live. Respect and be respected maxim. I’m just really confused about the fact others appear unable to.
Great blog by the way.
I’m on http://www.oconallstreet.com if you want to pop by
Conall
Businesses are scared of bloggers. Bloggers have opinions, that’s why they blog: to voice their opinions. That’s also why businesses are scared of bloggers: because they can’t control what is said about their product/service. Therein lies the root of the intimidation – by putting your brand out there into the realm of bloggers you’re exposing yourself to feedback of all sorts – not just the positive.
My issue with the presentation is the phrase “influencing group think” – this is exactly what bloggers don’t want you to do and why they are cynical. It’s not about getting the message to the right audience, and expecting them to deliver it for you. Bloggers are people capable of independent thought – if you are approaching them with the objective of influencing their point of view, this is disingenuous and goes against what is great and effective about social media in all its forms.
Unlike more traditional media whereby a single-minded message is broadcast AT a consumer, social media is about having conversations WITH your consumers. That way, those who are genuine advocates of your product/service will develop a deeper and more loyal relationship with you and wax lyrical about it, via their blog or otherwise. Those that are not advocates of your product/service will either not discuss it at all or will explain their opinion. Listening to the negatives can be just as useful, if not more so,than only seeking out the positives. It might really help your business get better in the future, and create more advocates.
All opinions are valid if they are genuine and not bought.
What’s required is a change in attitude from old-school thinking – broadcast mentality is no longer effective because we don’t trust brands any more. Conversations are key to rebuilding this trust and the brands that do it best, however large or small, will be the ones that succeed in the long term.
Hi Dena
Blogs are not the only social media. Group applies better to Facebook or BeBo where usuers are abale to join groups.
I covered this in my speech on Thursday.
Conall
Hi Conall,
I’m aware of that but this post related specifically to blogs & bloggers, which is why I referred to them alone. The same thinking I’m talking about applies to all social media platforms though. It’s about engagement and interaction rather than dictating a message in return for a prescribed reaction.
Conall,
Also just wanted to say that I actually support PR interacting with consumers via social media. I also think it should be commended, rather than lambasted, but it does require a different approach and thinking to traditional media. People as a whole are very cynical about advertising. In any research study if you ask the question “did this advertising have any effect on you?” and the answer will invariably trend towards the “no/not much” answers – we don’t like to feel as though we’re being controlled/
This is compounded online and is, in my opinion, one reason that people get so infuriated when they see it happening there, where the nature of communications is much more open and transparent (or at least we perceive them to be). To my mind, this is where there’s a real role for online PR to get it so right and actually do something great.
But it needs a new way of thinking which will take time, not only to train ourselves to think differently, but to explain to clients that they need to look for different things from it.
Personally, I wish you the best of luck – you’ve stuck your neck out by going for it and I hope it pays off. It’s new to all of us in the industry, so we’re all learning & should remember that when critiquing others, no matter how much oner person “gets it” versus another – if we listen to each other we can all learn & get better
Thanks Dena
I appreciate your comments and would love to continue the conversation offline. The thing about the other day was that there was in fact quite a good debate during which I made many of the points you have and others did too.
I am not as pessimistic as Niall about the PR – blogger relationship. I think ther is much to learn from each other and many opportunities for collaboration.
Conall
Always happy to meet & chat any time :
I don’t see why we should be pessimistic at all – there are problems at present but they’re not insurmountable. I think it’s a shame that Niall seems to think so, given what it is that Simply Zesty are trying to do.
Darragh, “As for Daniel’s point (someone who has no bones about making his many problems with Damien known at every evailable opportunity) once again Daniel, you’re adding to the problem.” I came here simply because Niall had twitted about it. I’m not sure precisely what many problems I’m adding to but would they include highlighting that a) some people have a vested financial interest in the line they are shilling or the folks they’re dissing b) that people have found some folks on-line to be wholly inconsistent and lacking in professionalism in their dealings whether with people or organisations, or c) that people are talking about and on behalf of bloggers as if they were representative spokespeople when no one is representative and there is, in truth, no community to represent. I’m sure I’ve missed many opportunities to make those points and I will miss many more.
As for the big D, I’m sure he won’t be back here to respond to anyone’s contribution. Interestingly he is someone I’ve yet to see engage directly with anyone outside of where he can control the ground rules. Instead this will most likely follow the typical pattern of some snide comments before he disappears off to use twitter or some other mechanism as a back channel to make his asides where he can control the conversation. Where is the openness and honesty there? How is that transparent?
And it is that failure to be consistent in the approach to openness that is, in some respect, contributing to this climate of fear or maybe just simple hesitancy on the part of companies. Why would you put yourself in the position of granting someone that amount of control to arbitrarily dump on your product or service without the ability to reply?
For a commercial organisation, being in business is about getting a return on your investment. Naturally this involves some element of risk to be sure but also some predictability and calculation of what that risk is and what the benefit is. Why would any organisation, even one voluntary or charitable in nature engage with any collection of individuals when the downside risk is considerably worse than the potential upside? What some people have referred to as having respect for people as individuals is very much tied up in the notion of professionalism; the idea of going about your job or performing your role in a professional manner. Some basic civility wouldn’t go amiss either. All too frequently there is an absence of respect in on-line engagement and for reasons I don’t understand some people get given a free pass on that. It’s not like they’re twelve.
I do agree with Darragh that with a blog everyone can speak but it needs to be remembered that not everyone can necessarily be equally heard. If you were an organisation or person trying to make a living why would you risk opening a dialogue with someone with more influence who could be prone to having a bad day, and as a result make ridiculous claims about your service or organisation, deny you a right of reply and then move on as if nothing had happened?
Darragh, “… Depends on what you think of as a “community” I suppose, but firstly, I don’t think there is a blogging “community” but an online one in Ireland, and (b) the bloggers involved are involved because they make themselves available, they answer invitations and they are open to approaches. Why? Because they’re interested in what they write about and they want to find out things“
I don’t think people who are on-line are a community anymore than I do people who blog or people who drive. Statements (which you haven’t made to be fair but others have) about the blogging community or “we bloggers” are simply overreach and overloading on a term that does not map to what is happening. That’s my view, and I’ve come across no argument to change it. I’m still open to someone making the case for the language of community being used but for the moment we will have to agree to disagree. As for the notion that PR or marketing should engage in some particular manner with bloggers, I agree completely with you that it is just people talking to people. Yet why are the basic rules that exist when people talk to one another off line thrown out the window online? It says something about someone that they would say one thing to someone’s face and another on-line. I’ve even come across the rather odd situation of someone twittering one thing while saying another while the same room with someone. If you have something to say and the chance to say it, say it there and then. Don’t be passing notes like you’re a kid in school, grow a pair and be prepared to stand over what you say.
Darragh, “I listen to people. I try to do things correctly and if and when I don’t, I apologise and I try not to make the same mistake again. It’s all people talking. No bullshit. It’s very simple. And there-in lies the zest. ”
And more power to you for practising what you preach. Yet there are others, who as we well know, never apologise, don’t feel they need to admit they make mistakes, and who are feted for their inability to avoid behaving as prima donnas and using their position to beat up on folks who’re only taking tentative steps in the social media world. That’s leaving out what they do to anyone who dares critique them. That is why there is a fear out there; it is not that the net is full of crazy people. It is that no one will admit that some of the folks are a bit crazy so newbies end up thinking everyone is like that.
If people want to be taken seriously then behaving like someone who wears a moa moa while chain smoking Parliaments and auditioning for the cast of ‘One flew over the cuckoo’s nest’ isn’t the way to do it*. I think it was Abraham Lincoln, in speaking to the class of San Dimas, who said “Be excellent to one another.”* We could try starting with that as an approach. It’s just a thought.
*My apologies to Aaron Sorkin, Chris Matheson and Ed Solomon.
Daniel, you’ve summed that up very well indeed. That’s the most mature and accurate assessment of the debate I’ve read so far.
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I’ve just read through a lot of these posts and to be honest, am really disappointed about the apparent ‘them and us’ mentality that seems to be out there. I don’t often post comments but having read through the many comments in this debate, I just had to say something.
Bloggers, social media practitioners and PR professionals are not rival factions, in fact we should all be working together to create the best communications campaigns we can whether for a product, a cause or simply for entertainment.
Like any discipline within the communications mix, knowing your target audience, where they communicate, granting them the courtesy of acknowledging that they can actually think for themselves and engaging in good quality exchange is what makes for success.
As a marketing and ‘traditional’ PR practitioner I am always surprised at how few PRs attend social media workshops but on the flipside, I would encourage social media practitioners to attend traditional PR worshops as well and neither are mutually exclusive. I’d see both schools as two departments within an organisation rather than rival companies.
Here’s to collaboration and not conflict!
Lisa, agreed. There’s learning to be had on both sides!